Digests

Welcome to the Digests
The digests start off with Digest number 530, 19 October 2004. The purpose here is not to document the group. It is to allow the group and users of the Ion Micron Wiki to be able to search the context of the digest for information relating to the ION and Micron. Digests 530 to 532 Digest 530, 19 October 2004 There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "bitexion"  2. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "bitexion"  3. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Eric Crudup"  4. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Eric Crudup"  5. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Eric Crudup"  6. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Eric Crudup"  7. question about octaves/oscilllators From: "Eric Crudup"  8. Re: question about octaves/oscilllators From: Miles Bader  9. Any authentic sounding samples? From: "crestrobz"  10. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "bitexion"  11. Re: further clarification on my ions sound quality possible problems From: "Eric Crudup"  12. Re: Any authentic sounding samples? From: "bitexion"  13. Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "Eric Crudup"  14. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "bitexion"  15. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Steve Peterka"  16. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "toorglick"  17. Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem! From: "billw_va" <billw_va@yahoo.com> 18. Re: Any authentic sounding samples? From: moose <moose@pigpendigital.com> 19. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "djfakt" <djfakt@yahoo.com> 20. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "poly4tune" <fortune@flomo-art.de> 21. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net> 22. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net> 23. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> 24. Re: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: Florin Andrei <florin@andrei.myip.org> 25. Re: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org>

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Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:32:49 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> > > I think we should all email alesis and threaten to report to BBB > them unless they explain on the website exactly what extra's they > used on those demos, and give us a downloadable tom sawyer preset > since they lied about it being a factory preset. Is it worth doing > this? When I bought the synth based on the incredible sound of the > classic rock demo, and my Ion sounds nowhere near as good, I'd say

No, I think that would be a childish act. You can't complain at a company for having better audio gear than a home user. And besides, why complain? Were you going to use that EXACT patch in a Tom Sawyer cover song or something? Make music with your instrument, make your own sounds, don't get stuck on some bad point and never get over it. Using the same sounds as lots of other people makes for easilly identified music. Like we can often hear that an 80's band has used a Jupiter-8 here, or a Roland D-50 preset there. Or in our case the Tom Sawyer preset here. Of course there is no harm in asking Alesis what gear they used, but you're probably gonna be blown into the skies when you see how expensive it is. Why try to copy someone else to the very most? That's not what a synthesizer is for.

The Ion can sound SO much better than the presets, every single reviewer on the web has said that. I'd say get over it.. It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some song, just because your programming skills are more limited than his. You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth then.

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Message: 2 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:57:15 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: >> The Ion can sound SO much better than the presets, every single > reviewer on the web has said that. I'd say get over it.. > It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog > that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some > song, just because your programming skills are more limited than his. > You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth then.

Just adding to my last post.

When Geddy Lee (of Rush, the legendary prog band that made Tom Sawyer) programmed the TS sound on his OB-X in the 70s, he had no reference to imitate. And it's not like he used that lead in every song ever after. He probably started with listening to waveforms, playing with filter and resonance until he hit a good sound.

The one in the vintage demo actually doesn't sound like the original sound very much. The demo sound is WAY punchier and fatter than the original. I have the album it is on, Moving Pictures. What I'm saying is don't blind yourself trying to recreate the demo. Think to yourself, was that really why you bought the synth? So you've found the presets, played the bits Alesis played, now what? You can only go SO far with that.

You could do what a synth is for, tweaking like crazy and come up with funny or good sounds by accident. Strip away all the nonsense, start with the Yellow 127. Many users deleted all the presets the moment they got the synth without even listening to them properly. Then filled their banks with own sounds within weeks. When you buy a real vintage synth, chances are that previous owners overwrote the factory presets 10 years ago and you'd have to reload them by tape if you want them back!

I've stumbled upon some cool sounds just by sitting down and trying different filters, LFO's, high/low resonance, envelope sweeps etc. Not necessarily having something in mind to copy.

Like these two sounds were mostly by accident.

http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/screamlead.mp3 http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/crazyarp.mp3 http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/softlead.mp3

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Message: 3 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:24:57 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

I am tired of hearing this argument. The demo was processed in a way that made every sound in the demo a lot better. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to make my own patches, or being good at programming, it has to do with the general sound quality of the synth, and how the demo is not representative of that sound quality. Is it possible to replicate the exact same sound quality from the demo on my stock Ion? No, it's not, so your argument is moot. And if it is then please, please I beg of you to prove me wrong.

When someone says "my Korg Polysix doesn't sound as good as my friends Jupiter 8" do you tell him the same thing? Is it because the JP8 owner has better programming skills? No, it's because the JP8 has a much better sound, just like the classic rock demo has a better sound than my Ion, it has nothing to do with programming. The presets on stock Ion and presets sound of the demo is only used for reference. If you knew exactly what they did, even if you don't have the same PRO quality equipment, it might give you a basis to making your synth sound better regardless of programming. But I guess it is your perogative to remain complacent, and just accept Alesis' use of falsified claims of sound quality. One route might make you enjoy your synth even MORE, even if it's a slight chance; the other will do absolutely nothing. You make the choice.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: > > --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> > > > I think we should all email alesis and threaten to report to BBB > > them unless they explain on the website exactly what extra's they > > used on those demos, and give us a downloadable tom sawyer preset > > since they lied about it being a factory preset. Is it worth doing > > this? When I bought the synth based on the incredible sound of the > > classic rock demo, and my Ion sounds nowhere near as good, I'd say > > No, I think that would be a childish act. You can't complain at a > company for having better audio gear than a home user. And besides, > why complain? Were you going to use that EXACT patch in a Tom Sawyer > cover song or something? Make music with your instrument, make your > own sounds, don't get stuck on some bad point and never get over it. > Using the same sounds as lots of other people makes for easilly > identified music. Like we can often hear that an 80's band has used > a Jupiter-8 here, or a Roland D-50 preset there. Or in our case the > Tom Sawyer preset here. Of course there is no harm in asking Alesis > what gear they used, but you're probably gonna be blown into the > skies when you see how expensive it is. Why try to copy someone else > to the very most? That's not what a synthesizer is for. > > The Ion can sound SO much better than the presets, every single > reviewer on the web has said that. I'd say get over it.. > It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog > that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some > song, just because your programming skills are more limited than his. > You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth then.

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Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:33:54 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

Not a good analogy at all. I could complain if Keith Emerson's couldn't even get the same sound out of his minimoog using the exact same settings when it was billed as a "preset" and I was made to believe the minimoog sounded exactly like that by the fact that they failed to tell me that they used anything extra in the demo. It's sort of like going to an electronics store and a guy going, look at the dealer going "look at this awesome picture quality" on a tv that's high definition trying to get you to buy it, and then when you do buy it, he sends you the same model but it is not HD, it's just a normal tv in the same casing.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote:

> It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog > that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some > song, just because your programming skills are more limited than his. > You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth then.

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Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:39:35 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

It can't make anything worse. If you don't try than it definitely won't help. From everything I've heard/experienced it sounds like I'll never be buying anything from Alesis again, at least unless they make some sort of attempt to fix their injustices towards me. In any case, laying complacent will do no good. Emails only take a couple minutes.

support@alesis.com rray@alesis.com

if you want to try to make things better, email those addresses.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "mrwizard32" <mrwizard32@y...> wrote: > > > Do you really think that this will help? It would appear that their > customer service rating is already below average. It seems like it > would just be a waste of time. > > > > --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > > > > I think we should all email alesis and threaten to report to BBB > > them unless they explain on the website exactly what extra's they > > used on those demos, and give us a downloadable tom sawyer preset > > since they lied about it being a factory preset. Is it worth doing > > this? When I bought the synth based on the incredible sound of the > > classic rock demo, and my Ion sounds nowhere near as good, I'd say > > yes. I spentover 600 dollars and what came to my house didn't sound > > like what was in the demo. That is terrible business on Alesis' > > part. I bet some of you bought it after hearing that demo too, and I > > bet virtually all of you would love to know the exact equipment used.

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Message: 6 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:21:14 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

screamlead and crazyarp sound pretty rad, btw. they would probably sound even better with the postprocessing of the demo, too.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: > > --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: > >> The Ion can sound SO much better than the presets, every single > > reviewer on the web has said that. I'd say get over it.. > > It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog > > that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some > > song, just because your programming skills are more limited than > his. > > You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth > then. > > Just adding to my last post. > > When Geddy Lee (of Rush, the legendary prog band that made Tom > Sawyer) programmed the TS sound on his OB-X in the 70s, he had no > reference to imitate. And it's not like he used that lead in every > song ever after. He probably started with listening to waveforms, > playing with filter and resonance until he hit a good sound. > > The one in the vintage demo actually doesn't sound like the original > sound very much. The demo sound is WAY punchier and fatter than the > original. I have the album it is on, Moving Pictures. What I'm > saying is don't blind yourself trying to recreate the demo. Think to > yourself, was that really why you bought the synth? So you've found > the presets, played the bits Alesis played, now what? You can only > go SO far with that. > > You could do what a synth is for, tweaking like crazy and come up > with funny or good sounds by accident. Strip away all the nonsense, > start with the Yellow 127. Many users deleted all the presets the > moment they got the synth without even listening to them properly. > Then filled their banks with own sounds within weeks. > When you buy a real vintage synth, chances are that previous owners > overwrote the factory presets 10 years ago and you'd have to reload > them by tape if you want them back! > > I've stumbled upon some cool sounds just by sitting down and trying > different filters, LFO's, high/low resonance, envelope sweeps etc. > Not necessarily having something in mind to copy. > > Like these two sounds were mostly by accident. > > http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/screamlead.mp3 > http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/crazyarp.mp3 > http://home.online.no/~tom-rf/softlead.mp3

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Message: 7 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:44:04 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: question about octaves/oscilllators

does anyone know why it sounds different when i turn an octave down or up on the ion, and change all 3 oscillators the opposite direction. For instance, i will play a patch at default octave range, and it seems like it should sound the same if i turn the octave down but turn all 3 oscillators up. This is not a complaint, just I want to know the technical reason for this.

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Message: 8 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:54:50 -0400 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: Re: question about octaves/oscilllators

On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:44:04PM -0000, Eric Crudup wrote: > does anyone know why it sounds different when i turn an octave down > or up on the ion, and change all 3 oscillators the opposite > direction. For instance, i will play a patch at default octave > range, and it seems like it should sound the same if i turn the > octave down but turn all 3 oscillators up. This is not a complaint, > just I want to know the technical reason for this.

Changing the osc pitch _just_ changes that, but changing the "octave" setting affects anything that uses the keyboard pitch as an input, including filter key tracking, modulation parameter, etc.

[I really wish there were an equivalent to the "octave" setting that was a permanent part of a patch -- often I make a nice patch, and then realize the octave switch had been in a non-zero position, but it's damn near impossible to _just_ change the pitch of a patch because of all the various key scaling going on in different placces.]

-Miles -- In New York, most people don't have cars, so if you want to kill a person, you have to take the subway to their house. And sometimes on the way, the train is delayed and you get impatient, so you have to kill someone on the subway. [George Carlin]

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Message: 9 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:02:29 -0000 From: "crestrobz" <crestrobz@yahoo.com> Subject: Any authentic sounding samples?

Hi, I'm looking to replace my old QS6 (which got dropped and is now decidedly dead) and am looking for a realtime performance since such as the Ion (I used to own a Yamaha CS1x and just LOVED the ease of use of the knobs, not to mention the retro look and feel).

But does the Ion have any sampled, non-synthesized sounds such as an authentic sounding piano or two? What I need most are Rhodes-type electric pianos and am looking for a genuine sound, as opposed to 'creating' my own EP like sounds. Does the Ion have any sampled sounds? I do create a lot of synthesized, electronic hip-hop type stuff so the Ion is definitely something I could have fun with, but this is not my only taste.

What else might I want to know about the Ion? I'm not a hard core musician, just love to create music in my own studio for mostly my own listening. Thanks!

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Message: 10 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:31 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > screamlead and crazyarp sound pretty rad, btw. they would probably > sound even better with the postprocessing of the demo, too.

Thanks :) I'm not trying to argue with you, our thoughts just differ on some points. I found that when I bought my mixer, and used the 4- band equalizer to turn up the high and low end, it sounds lots better already.

I do realize any synth will sound better with proper postprocessing. But you just can't expect the company to put stickers on their products saying "sound may not be the same as without our expensive gear". I don't think Alesis did me injustice by not telling me what exact gear they have..altough it could be an idea to put a disclaimer on their website that states something like "Sound may differ from the demo songs". But I think they believe most musicians already know that a stock instrument will sound 3 times better with lots of expensive boxes surrounding it. Or maybe they should give discounts on the same gear they have, so people can get that exact benchmark sound on their system at home? :)

I'll try another (bad) analogy:

Say you buy the exact same guitar as your old guitar hero, Yngwie Malmsteen..same brand, same colour. But you just can't get that particular "great" sound he has even though it's the very same. Do you then write angry letters to BC Rich that their guitar sounds crap without postprocessing the sound? Or maybe write Malmsteen demanding to know his gear?

It is just so common to use a rack of other gear together with instruments these days (always been I guess), that companies don't think of it maybe. I've seen synthists on stage have racks as tall as themselves. Guitarists even worse..

Bear with me, opinions differ, scientists will ALWAYS argue about theories, or there would be no point of having scientists at all.

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Message: 11 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:06:56 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: further clarification on my ions sound quality possible problems

why would you need to reset the phase of each voice that is sounding?

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Lucas" <roblucas1979@y...> wrote: > To normalise the phase each time you press a key, on a synth with the Ion's 1 chip per voice architecture would mean either making sure each voice starts at 0 phase, and also reset the phase of each voice that is already sounding as well, which will produce a noticeable blip in the sound every time you press a key in every single polyphonic patch, and not just in special cases, or to run each voice off the same clock signal, so that the second voice, when it kicks in, will start at the phase of the notes already sounding, which is how I guess other VAs work, but would be extremely difficult on the ion, because the voices are completely independant microprocessors running off their own clock cycles. As for why they did it this way, the ion was built to be as close to analogue as they could get it, and in a polyphonic analogue synth, the voices are also running independant of each other, either in independant ICs or as discreet components, and are also free running, they're oscillating whether you're pressing a key or not. You'll probably get the same result in and vintage polyphonic synth, and that's exactly what alesis wanted. There's no option to turn it off because of the independant chips make it almost impossible for each voice to run off 1 clock. It's either a choice of having the independant oscillators and getting close to the randomness of analogue, or not having the same voicing structure as all the other VAs >  - Original Message - >  From: Eric Crudup >  To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com >  Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 2:05 AM >   Subject: [alesis-ion] Re: further clarification on my ions sound quality possible problems > > > >  If this is a product of free running oscillators, that are >  continually out of phase with each other, which to me seems the most >  likely reason for what i'm hearing being that there's a definite 8 >  note phase pattern, how easy would this be to fix via a software >  update? Why did Alesis include this mandatory on Ion's without >  giving an option to turn it off, when apparently other synths don't >  have it? > >  Also, this could be the reason why a lot of people like the ion as a >  monosynth but not really as a polysynth. If they could normalize the >  phase relationships between oscillators and voices or at least >  provide the option to do so somewhere in the settings they'd have a >   synth that was better and more versatile. Pretty please 1.07?

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Message: 12 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:55:36 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: Any authentic sounding samples?

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "crestrobz" <crestrobz@y...> wrote: > > Hi, I'm looking to replace my old QS6 (which got dropped and is now > decidedly dead) and am looking for a realtime performance since such > as the Ion (I used to own a Yamaha CS1x and just LOVED the ease of > use of the knobs, not to mention the retro look and feel).

No, the Ion is a pure synthesizer, that means no sampled grand pianos. But there are some decent electric pianos synthezised. Another way is to use samplers or play samples off CD's/your harddrive with the Ion MIDI'd up. I've heard several good Rhodes recreations from patches I downloaded from this group. The Ion is wondeful for making effects and warm pads and fat basses, sharp leads it does too. It is something as rare as a 3 oscillator virtual analog synth. All the VA synths I've seen have only 2 oscillators, that is 2 waveforms making the sound, as opposed to 3 possible waveforms in a sound. So it can sound much bigger than the others. With the FM mod you can get a percussive sound alike pianos, so el. pianos I think it will do good.

Just be aware that on the demo songs Alesis recorded, they use a bunch of outboard effects to beef up the sound, so it won't sound exactly the same when you bring it home and just plug it into your soundcard or straight to speakers :)

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Message: 13 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:28:00 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

The oscillators are also slightly out of phase, not just the voices. I will hit a key and sometimes it will sound powerful, and others it won't sound as powerful when using more than one oscillator. Here is an example the default patch, except i changed it to 2 square waves, and set the filter to bypass, instead of the default MG4. For those with decent ears, you can clearly hear that on some key presses it loses power, probably due to phase issues. this does not happen with only 1 oscillator on. For some reason, it becomes a little less apparent with 3 oscillators doing a square wave, but it is still there to some extent. Using a filter cuts out a little of the effect also, but that would make sense as it is a "filter".

this is not just me hearing what's not there either, i put this into a DAW and stretched the wav out so you can see the individual waveforms. I will post pictures as well as an audio sample.

Exhibit A: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/tallershorter.JPG

here you can see that out of the 4 notes that are played, the 1st and 3rd are taller(more powerful), and the 2nd and 4th are a little shorter(hampered by out of phase oscillators).

Exhibit B: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/tallershorter2.JPG

showcasing the same thing in the single waveform view, instead of the multitrack recording view of Adobe Audition

Exhibit C: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/inphaseoscillators.JPG

Here we see the waveform of the first note played. It looks in phase, which is why it sounds stronger. The 3rd note looks like this too.

Exhibit D: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/outofphaseoscillators.JPG

The waveform of the second note played. It looks like 2 sqaure waves out of phase. The 4th note looks like this also.

Exhibit E: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/Track_1.mp3

And finally, you get to hear the audio sample. Let me reiterate the weak sound of the 2nd and 4th key presses due to phase. The difference in sound can't be due to the "free running osciallators" or the voices being out of phase with each other because the release time is so short and the interval between each time i press the key is so long that there is can't be any overlap. The pictures already prove this anyway.

Conclusion: The Alesis Ion has phase problems that need to be addressed.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 03:22:42PM -0000, jpyn8 wrote: > > > Well clearly if they're detuned they'll start to move out of phase after > > > the start point. I'm talking only about the start phase. > > > > "Phase" is the relationship between two waveforms. Just because > > every note will start at it's zero point does NOT mean they will all > > be in phase with EACH OTHER. Read my example again, and try to > > explain why this is not the case: > > You seem to be talking about the phase relationship of the waves in > _difference notes_ with respect to each other -- of course that will be > (essentially) random. But that's not what's being discussed, or what is > generally meant when people talk about this issue. > > What's relevant is the phase relationship between oscillators in the _same > note_, specifically at the note's start point, because this has a highly > audible effect. For instance, consider: (1) If your amp-env is set to a very > sharp attack, and (an) oscillator(s) starts at a non-zero-point, then you can > get more pops than if they all start at a zero-point, and the volume of the > pops will be more or less random. (2) If the oscillators use the same > symmetrical waveform (e.g., sine) and are almost exactly in tune, then a > all-zero-point start will mean the attack always sounds "strong" because the > waves reinforce at this critical point, but if their phase relationship is > random, then you'll sometimes get a "strong" attack, and sometimes a much > quieter one because the waves cancel, again in a somewhat random fashion. > For saw waves it looks like point (2) can also yield tonal/frequency > differences in the same manner. > > -Miles > -- > I'd rather be consing.

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Message: 14 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:35:15 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > The oscillators are also slightly out of phase, not just the voices. > I will hit a key and sometimes it will sound powerful, and others it > won't sound as powerful when using more than one oscillator. Here is > an example the default patch, except i changed it to 2 square

Interesting. Send the pics to Alesis, see what they say.. And is it a very bad thing?

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Message: 15 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:41:17 -0000 From: "Steve Peterka" <speterka@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

Comments interspersed

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: > > But you just can't expect the company to put stickers on their > products saying "sound may not be the same as without our expensive > gear".

Oh yes I can. It's called truth in advertising. They should state demo(testing) conditions unless it's stock.

Or maybe they should give discounts > on the same gear they have, so people can get that exact benchmark > sound on their system at home? :)

If it's their gear, that's a good marketing move.

> > I'll try another (bad) analogy: > > Say you buy the exact same guitar as your old guitar hero, Yngwie > Malmsteen..same brand, same colour. But you just can't get that > particular "great" sound he has even though it's the very same. > Do you then write angry letters to BC Rich that their guitar sounds > crap without postprocessing the sound? Or maybe write Malmsteen > demanding to know his gear?

Yngwie's setup, as an end user, doesn't figure into it. Once he, or you, get it home, do with it as you will. But if BC Rich says "this is what our guitar sounds like" but doesn't reveal they swapped out the pickups and electronics first, that's false advertising. Moog Music can't truthfully demo Keith Emerson's modular and say "This is our Minimoog" (plus a few undisclosed additions.)

Now that I'm aware of this deception, I'm afraid I have to distrust anything else Alesis says.

No Micron for me until I can try a demo unit for myself under known conditions.

Steve

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Message: 16 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:16:05 -0000 From: "toorglick" <toorglick@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

Holy mother of God, have you people absolutely nothing better to do with your lives?

The demos and my ION sound exactly alike.

Sell the damn thing and get a Nord or something. Life is too short for such meaningless crusades.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > I am tired of hearing this argument. The demo was processed in a way > that made every sound in the demo a lot better. It has nothing to do > with me not wanting to make my own patches, or being good at > programming, it has to do with the general sound quality of the > synth, and how the demo is not representative of that sound quality. > Is it possible to replicate the exact same sound quality from the > demo on my stock Ion? No, it's not, so your argument is moot. And if > it is then please, please I beg of you to prove me wrong. > > When someone says "my Korg Polysix doesn't sound as good as my > friends Jupiter 8" do you tell him the same thing? Is it because the > JP8 owner has better programming skills? No, it's because the JP8 > has a much better sound, just like the classic rock demo has a > better sound than my Ion, it has nothing to do with programming. The > presets on stock Ion and presets sound of the demo is only used for > reference. If you knew exactly what they did, even if you don't have > the same PRO quality equipment, it might give you a basis to making > your synth sound better regardless of programming. But I guess it is > your perogative to remain complacent, and just accept Alesis' use of > falsified claims of sound quality. One route might make you enjoy > your synth even MORE, even if it's a slight chance; the other will > do absolutely nothing. You make the choice.

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Message: 17 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:29:19 -0000 From: "billw_va" <billw_va@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem!

Yeah, I think the bank switch values are incorrect. I didn't see the values mentioned in the manual, but I'm looking again. I know this isn't rocket science...I built these things from scratch in the past for things like the EMU Vintage Keys module.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> wrote: > the inf file you have is not done right... > same problem here, just have not edited it to fix it. > if you tell sonar/cakewalk to reset the midi track each time, you will have to adjust the bank on the ION too, each time... > > maybe someone can edit the fix for you today and re-post the correction. > > dale > > Administrator for Kay-Net.com > admin@k... > Lancaster CA > 661-723-0266 > > Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter > the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000- subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Dale's band web page > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm > >  - Original Message - >  From: billw_va >  To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com >  Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:30 PM >   Subject: [alesis-ion] Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem! > > > >  I downloaded a couple of different Cakewalk instrument definition >  files for my Ion, but I'm having an issue with bank switching. From >  Sonar (4PE), I can change patches just fine, but I can't get the Ion >  to switch out of the Red bank. If I select Blue, Yellow, or User in >  Sonar, the Ion switches to the correct patch number, but it stays in >  the Red bank. Of course, walking over to the Ion and manually >  switching the bank works fine. But as soon as I go back to Sonar and >  change the patch, the bank automatically goes back to Red. Any >  ideas?

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Message: 18 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:48:52 -0700 From: moose <moose@pigpendigital.com> Subject: Re: Any authentic sounding samples?

On 19/10/04 6:02 AM, "crestrobz" wrote:

> Hi, I'm looking to replace my old QS6 (which got dropped and is now > decidedly dead) and am looking for a realtime performance since such > as the Ion (I used to own a Yamaha CS1x and just LOVED the ease of > use of the knobs, not to mention the retro look and feel). > totally different machines, like chalk & cheese. the qs6 bases everything on samples whereas the ion uses virtual synthesis and sounds way more analogue. trying to get the ion to sound anything like the qs is virtually impossible.

my advice would be to get another qs6, or the qsr rack & an ion!

}:-) <-- big qs abuser

email : moose@pigpendigital.com

music sites : http://www.pigpendigital.com http://www.alaskahighway.com http://www.mishikawa.com

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 19 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:18:09 -0000 From: "djfakt" <djfakt@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

Very good!!!.....I knew my ears weren't lying to me.....I have heard this before but I just didn't know what caused it. Big up on the explanation.......Alesis needs to fix this now!!!!!--- In alesis- ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > The oscillators are also slightly out of phase, not just the voices. > I will hit a key and sometimes it will sound powerful, and others it > won't sound as powerful when using more than one oscillator. Here is > an example the default patch, except i changed it to 2 square waves, > and set the filter to bypass, instead of the default MG4. For those > with decent ears, you can clearly hear that on some key presses it > loses power, probably due to phase issues. this does not happen with > only 1 oscillator on. For some reason, it becomes a little less > apparent with 3 oscillators doing a square wave, but it is still > there to some extent. Using a filter cuts out a little of the effect > also, but that would make sense as it is a "filter". > > this is not just me hearing what's not there either, i put this into > a DAW and stretched the wav out so you can see the individual > waveforms. I will post pictures as well as an audio sample. > > Exhibit A: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/tallershorter.JPG > > here you can see that out of the 4 notes that are played, the 1st > and 3rd are taller(more powerful), and the 2nd and 4th are a little > shorter(hampered by out of phase oscillators). > > > Exhibit B: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/tallershorter2.JPG > > showcasing the same thing in the single waveform view, instead of > the multitrack recording view of Adobe Audition > > > Exhibit C: > http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/inphaseoscillators.JPG > > Here we see the waveform of the first note played. It looks in > phase, which is why it sounds stronger. The 3rd note looks like this > too. > > > Exhibit D: > http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/outofphaseoscillators.JPG > > The waveform of the second note played. It looks like 2 sqaure waves > out of phase. The 4th note looks like this also. > > > Exhibit E: http://home.comcast.net/~briefcaseman/Track_1.mp3 > > And finally, you get to hear the audio sample. Let me reiterate the > weak sound of the 2nd and 4th key presses due to phase. The > difference in sound can't be due to the "free running osciallators" > or the voices being out of phase with each other because the release > time is so short and the interval between each time i press the key > is so long that there is can't be any overlap. The pictures already > prove this anyway. > > Conclusion: The Alesis Ion has phase problems that need to be > addressed. > > > --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 03:22:42PM -0000, jpyn8 wrote: > > > > Well clearly if they're detuned they'll start to move out of > phase after > > > > the start point. I'm talking only about the start phase. > > > > > > "Phase" is the relationship between two waveforms. Just because > > > every note will start at it's zero point does NOT mean they will > all > > > be in phase with EACH OTHER. Read my example again, and try to > > > explain why this is not the case: > > > > You seem to be talking about the phase relationship of the waves in > > _difference notes_ with respect to each other -- of course that > will be > > (essentially) random. But that's not what's being discussed, or > what is > > generally meant when people talk about this issue. > > > > What's relevant is the phase relationship between oscillators in > the _same > > note_, specifically at the note's start point, because this has a > highly > > audible effect. For instance, consider: (1) If your amp-env is > set to a very > > sharp attack, and (an) oscillator(s) starts at a non-zero-point, > then you can > > get more pops than if they all start at a zero-point, and the > volume of the > > pops will be more or less random. (2) If the oscillators use the > same > > symmetrical waveform (e.g., sine) and are almost exactly in tune, > then a > > all-zero-point start will mean the attack always sounds "strong" > because the > > waves reinforce at this critical point, but if their phase > relationship is > > random, then you'll sometimes get a "strong" attack, and sometimes > a much > > quieter one because the waves cancel, again in a somewhat random > fashion. > > For saw waves it looks like point (2) can also yield > tonal/frequency > > differences in the same manner. > > > > -Miles > > -- > > I'd rather be consing.

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Message: 20 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:18:36 -0000 From: "poly4tune" <fortune@flomo-art.de> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "toorglick" <toorglick@y...> wrote: > > Holy mother of God, have you people absolutely nothing better to do > with your lives? > > The demos and my ION sound exactly alike. > > Sell the damn thing and get a Nord or something. Life is too short > for such meaningless crusades. > > You are right. to me it looks a bit like guerilla marketing how some folks put their whole effort on a hair in a soup aiming to discredit Alesis. And, if one "complainer" is out here it takes only about a week the next one is there presenting a hair in his (subjective) soup. That seems a bit strange to me.

This is at all not very productive here.

just my 2 cents Fortune

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Message: 21 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:42:06 -0000 From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote:

> The difference in sound can't be due to the "free running osciallators" > or the voices being out of phase with each other because the release > time is so short and the interval between each time i press the key > is so long that there is can't be any overlap. The pictures already > prove this anyway. > > Conclusion: The Alesis Ion has phase problems that need to be > addressed.

Here's something else to notice: each time you change the waveform from Sine, Tri or Pulse, the phase apparently gets reset. Try this:

Call up the patch you were using above, with the two Pulse waveforms. Set the Arp to play a single note repeatedly, maybe at a slow tempo (just so you've got the pattern running and you have your hands free). With those notes playing ,you should hear the phase "pattern" like you heard before. Now, switch one of the oscillators to Sine, then Tri, then back to Pulse. The "pattern" in the phase cancellation will sound different now. Also, get a load of this: if you're just using two oscillators, and you change the waveform on the third oscillator (which isn't making any sound) you
 * still* get a change in the phase relationship.

Having said all of that - I still say this doesn't bother me one bit. It makes the ION act and sound MORE ANALOG to me. Reasons:

A) You will never get a true analog synth to play multiple waveforms that are 100% in phase with one another.

B) If you DO get your digital synth to play OSC 1 and OSC 2 completely and entirely in phase with one another at the exact same pitch, then guess what? As I said before, it will sound just like ONE oscillator. Adding a second waveform at the exact same pitch and 100% in phase will only increase the volume of the sound being produced, it will not change the timbre. You might as well use a single oscillator if that's what you're going for.

C) I create patches and I play music. As far as I'm concerned, the ION sounds great and has a very wide range of sonic capabilities...NONE of which are hindered by the relative phase of the oscillators. AGAIN, what you are hearing ONLY matters when playing two waveforms with the same shape at the exact same pitch. Do you ever detune your oscillators to make a patch sound fatter? Then phase does not matter one bit.

And I assure you, if Alesis were to fix this "problem", this would be the result:

A) You could play a patch with OSC1 and OSC2 entirely in phase with one another - and make a VERY BORING sound.

B) You could detune the oscillators (or modify them in any number of ways so that they are different from one another) and make a more interesting sound that, coincidentally, would sound EXACTLY THE SAME on an ION that hasn't been updated with the "phase corrected" OS.

-Jason

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Message: 22 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:51:12 -0000 From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> wrote: > > And finally, you get to hear the audio sample. Let me reiterate the > weak sound of the 2nd and 4th key presses due to phase. The > difference in sound can't be due to the "free running osciallators"

I would also like to point out - if the two oscillators are truly at the exact same pitch, then each note should sound exactly the same whether they are in phase or not. In order to get a different sound with each key press, one of the waveforms would have to be shifting in phase relative to the other (i.e. a slightly longer or shorter cycle, meaning a different pitch). See what I mean? Two of the exact same pitch, but 180 degrees out of phase, *should* mean they are 180 degrees out of phase every single time you play a note.

So it's a pitch difference. A very small one. Maybe Analog Drift is constantly on within the programming of the ION, even slightly, in order to emulate true analog.

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Message: 23 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:43:41 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

After explaining some of my problems to the Alesis tech guy he offered to send me a return label and a new Ion. Awesome. The sound quality may have just been my defunct Ion. I guess I can shut up now, and wait for the new unit to arrive. :)

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "bitexion" <tom-rf@o...> wrote: > Interesting. Send the pics to Alesis, see what they say.. > And is it a very bad thing?

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Message: 24 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:02:40 -0700 From: Florin Andrei <florin@andrei.myip.org> Subject: Re: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 02:32, bitexion wrote:

> The Ion can sound SO much better than the presets, every single > reviewer on the web has said that. I'd say get over it..

Indeed.

The demos specify they were made on an Ion. They do not specify they were made exclusively using the presets. They do not specify no processing occured after extracting the sound from the Ion.

> It's kind of like being disappointed after buying an old Minimoog > that you can't get the EXACT sound that Keith Emerson has on some > song, just because your programming skills are more limited than his. > You certainly can't complain to the company that made the synth then.

(sarcasm) Oh yes, you can.

John Doe gets cancer after smoking 40 cigarettes a day for 20 years, then sues Tobacco International Inc.

News at 11.

-- Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Message: 25 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:02:44 -0400 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: Re: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 06:51:12PM -0000, jpyn8 wrote: > I would also like to point out - if the two oscillators are truly at > the exact same pitch, then each note should sound exactly the same > whether they are in phase or not. In order to get a different sound > with each key press, one of the waveforms would have to be shifting > in phase relative to the other (i.e. a slightly longer or shorter > cycle, meaning a different pitch). See what I mean? Two of the exact > same pitch, but 180 degrees out of phase, *should* mean they are 180 > degrees out of phase every single time you play a note.

It depends on how Alesis implements their "free running" oscillator simulation -- if they actually do "keep the oscillators running" even when a voice is not sounding [*], you're right, but if they just randomize the phase on the note trigger, then it will be of course be random each time.

A case could be made that randomization is better for simulating an analogue synth, since analogue oscillators are never truly in tune.

[*] Since they dedicate a physical DSP to each voice, this may be lot more practical than with some other synth software architectures, but the multi-timbral operation might still make it hard to do consistently (because each DSP may be actually dynamically switching between patches).

-Miles -- Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory. -- Walter Hines Page

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Digest 531, 20 Ootober 2004 There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> 2. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> 3. Re: question about octaves/oscilllators From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 4. Re: Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem! From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 5. Re: Any authentic sounding samples? From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 6. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> 7. Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> 8. 88-key actions From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> 9. Re: 88-key actions From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> 10. Re: Analog and VA "imperfections" From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> 11. Re: 88-key actions From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 12. Re: 88-key actions From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> 13. Re: Analog and VA "imperfections" From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> 14. Re: 88-key actions From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> 15. Re: Analog and VA "imperfections" From: "toorglick" <toorglick@yahoo.com> 16. Re: Re: 88-key actions From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 17. Re: 88-key actions From: moose <moose@pigpendigital.com> 18. vocoder request From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 19. Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF! From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net>

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Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:34:54 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

Holy mother of god, most other people with decent ears, whether they love the sound of the ion or hate it, disagree with you.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "toorglick" <toorglick@y...> wrote: > > Holy mother of God, have you people absolutely nothing better to do > with your lives? > > The demos and my ION sound exactly alike. > > Sell the damn thing and get a Nord or something. Life is too short > for such meaningless crusades. > > > > --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> > wrote: > > > > I am tired of hearing this argument. The demo was processed in a > way > > that made every sound in the demo a lot better. It has nothing to > do > > with me not wanting to make my own patches, or being good at > > programming, it has to do with the general sound quality of the > > synth, and how the demo is not representative of that sound > quality. > > Is it possible to replicate the exact same sound quality from the > > demo on my stock Ion? No, it's not, so your argument is moot. And > if > > it is then please, please I beg of you to prove me wrong. > > > > When someone says "my Korg Polysix doesn't sound as good as my > > friends Jupiter 8" do you tell him the same thing? Is it because > the > > JP8 owner has better programming skills? No, it's because the JP8 > > has a much better sound, just like the classic rock demo has a > > better sound than my Ion, it has nothing to do with programming. > The > > presets on stock Ion and presets sound of the demo is only used for > > reference. If you knew exactly what they did, even if you don't > have > > the same PRO quality equipment, it might give you a basis to making > > your synth sound better regardless of programming. But I guess it > is > > your perogative to remain complacent, and just accept Alesis' use > of > > falsified claims of sound quality. One route might make you enjoy > > your synth even MORE, even if it's a slight chance; the other will > > do absolutely nothing. You make the choice.

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Message: 2 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:42:08 -0000 From: "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

It is not a slight change in pitch. It was done on a cycle. every odd note sounded the same and every even note sounded the same, and the phase relationship did not change during a single note as long as i had the note pressed down, no matter how long i had it pressed down. If it was a slight change in pitched then I would have been able to hold the key down as long as the first 3 notes and heard it slowly change pitch in and out of phase. This was not the case. I don't know how/why there is a 2 note pattern? It seems pretty senseless. That actually doesn't really make sense to me given the ion's 8 voice architecture. It seems like either it would have to be random, or 8 voice pattern. Now that I think about it, a 2 voice pattern may indicate something wrong with my synth, unless you guys can confirm the same findings on your Ion's. Precisely why I am going to get a new one.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 06:51:12PM -0000, jpyn8 wrote: > > I would also like to point out - if the two oscillators are truly at > > the exact same pitch, then each note should sound exactly the same > > whether they are in phase or not. In order to get a different sound > > with each key press, one of the waveforms would have to be shifting > > in phase relative to the other (i.e. a slightly longer or shorter > > cycle, meaning a different pitch). See what I mean? Two of the exact > > same pitch, but 180 degrees out of phase, *should* mean they are 180 > > degrees out of phase every single time you play a note. > > It depends on how Alesis implements their "free running" oscillator > simulation -- if they actually do "keep the oscillators running" even when > a voice is not sounding [*], you're right, but if they just randomize the > phase on the note trigger, then it will be of course be random each time. > > A case could be made that randomization is better for simulating an analogue > synth, since analogue oscillators are never truly in tune. > > [*] Since they dedicate a physical DSP to each voice, this may be lot more > practical than with some other synth software architectures, but the > multi-timbral operation might still make it hard to do consistently (because > each DSP may be actually dynamically switching between patches). > > -Miles > -- > Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory. >  -- Walter Hines Page

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Message: 3 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:47:28 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: question about octaves/oscilllators

going to assume that, you are talking about the transpose octave for the keybed and not the osc octaves or transpose octave, the latter is part of the patches.

reference
 * 1) "knob * param" can be:
 * 2)   Voice Polyphony, Voice Unison, Voice UsnDetune, Voice Portamnto,
 * 3)   Voice PortaType, Voice PortaTime, Voice Pitch Whl, Voice AnlgDrift,
 * 4)   Voice Osc Sync, Voice FM Amount, Voice FM Type, Osc 1 Waveform,
 * 5)   Osc 1 Waveshape, Osc 1 Octave, Osc 1 Transpose, Osc 1 Pitch,
 * 6)   Osc 1 PWhlRange, Osc 2 Waveform, Osc 2 Waveshape, Osc 2 Octave,
 * 7)   Osc 2 Transpose, Osc 2 Pitch, Osc 2 PWhlRange, Osc 3 Waveform,
 * 8)   Osc 3 Waveshape, Osc 3 Octave, Osc 3 Transpose, Osc 3 Pitch,
 * 9)   Osc 3 PWhlRange, Pre Osc 1 Level, Pre Osc 2 Level, Pre Osc 3 Level,

dale

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: Miles Bader To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:54 AM Subject: Re: [alesis-ion] question about octaves/oscilllators [I really wish there were an equivalent to the "octave" setting that was a permanent part of a patch -- often I make a nice patch, and then realize the octave switch had been in a non-zero position, but it's damn near impossible to _just_ change the pitch of a patch because of all the various key scaling going on in different placces.]

-Miles

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:01:12 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem!

here is a problem to note bank switch can be cc 0 or cc 32, you set that value in the global menu... which will you use and post as a inf?

dale

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: billw_va To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 8:29 AM Subject: [alesis-ion] Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem!

Yeah, I think the bank switch values are incorrect. I didn't see the values mentioned in the manual, but I'm looking again. I know this isn't rocket science...I built these things from scratch in the past for things like the EMU Vintage Keys module.

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:05:04 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: Any authentic sounding samples?

Re: [alesis-ion] Any authentic sounding samples?or get a nano-synth (qs6 inside) and a decent set of 88 keys ;-)

dale <- uses 3 nano-synths, sometimes at once, makes big noise ;-)

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: moose To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [alesis-ion] Any authentic sounding samples?

On 19/10/04 6:02 AM, "crestrobz" wrote:

Hi, I'm looking to replace my old QS6 (which got dropped and is now    decidedly dead) and am looking for a realtime performance since such as the Ion (I used to own a Yamaha CS1x and just LOVED the ease of    use of the knobs, not to mention the retro look and feel).

totally different machines, like chalk & cheese. the qs6 bases everything on samples whereas the ion uses virtual synthesis and sounds way more analogue. trying to get the ion to sound anything like the qs is virtually impossible.

my advice would be to get another qs6, or the qsr rack & an ion!

}:-) <-- big qs abuser

email : moose@pigpendigital.com

music sites : http://www.pigpendigital.com http://www.alaskahighway.com http://www.mishikawa.com

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 6 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:58:58 +0900 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

"Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> writes: > That actually doesn't really make sense to me given the > ion's 8 voice architecture. It seems like either it would have to be > random, or 8 voice pattern.

Not necessarily.

The Ion has dedicated DSPs for each voice (modulo multi-timbral operation; I'm not sure what it does then), and given typical synth polyphonic voice-allocation algorithms, it's not surprising that the synth would repeatedly alternate between, say, voice #0 and voice #1 in such a test.

If it really does keep the "oscillators" running continuously on each voice even when the amplitude is zero, that would yield the results you describe. Just like an analogue synth.

> Now that I think about it, a 2 voice pattern may indicate something > wrong with my synth, unless you guys can confirm the same findings on > your Ion's. Precisely why I am going to get a new one.

You seem really anxious to find fault with your Ion.

Based on what you've said, it really doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your synth. It sounds like you're just getting excessively freaked out over quite standard synthesis artifacts.

The real question is not whether artificial test cases (such as you've been using) generate results different than your rompler (the Ion is not a rompler, so they almost certainly will), the question is: do these artifacts really affect your music negatively?

-Miles -- `There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'

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Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:02:10 +0900 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: Re: Alesis and the Better Business Bureau

"Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@msn.com> writes: > In any case, laying complacent will do no good. Emails only take a > couple minutes.

Why should we email them? You seem to be the only person who cares very much...

> I'll never be buying anything from Alesis again, at least unless > they make some sort of attempt to fix their injustices towards me.

How old are you?

-Miles -- Ich bin ein Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.

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Message: 8 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:16:28 +0900 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: 88-key actions

"Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> writes: > a decent set of 88 keys ;-)

BTW, since you're the 88-key, er, guy, any comment on the following?

I recently tried out a real Rhodes piano ("Mark II" if that's informative), and it had the greatest key-action -- the keys had a lot of momentum[*], felt nice and deep, but the action was still really quick and "loose". It made all the 88-key midi controllers I've tried seem positively sluggish (but I think many acoustic pianos do too).

[*] The guy in the store kept saying "it's because they're real wood" but does the material of the keys really make that much difference? It seems like the same weight of plastic would have the same feel, and the keys are covered with plastic anyway...

I'd really like to find an 88-key midi keyboard with an action like that.

The best I've tried so far is the Yamaha S-90, but it's still a far cry from that lovely Rhodes... the S-90 is also kind of expensive. I compared it to the widely praised P-90, but liked the S-90 better; it felt um, less sluggish (kind of confusing that Yamaha would use different actions on their high-end midi keyboards; are these really different, or was it just my imagination).

Thanks,

-Miles -- If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. [George Carlin]

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Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:32:02 -0000 From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

Most Rhodes pianos, when new, had horribly stiff action and needed considerable break-in time to be playable. They got progressively looser and really nice to play, however they gradually keep getting looser until the action (IMO) was too light; this takes quite a long time to happen, though. I think wood keys do make a difference, but I'm a carpenter :)                                                                      --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> writes: > > a decent set of 88 keys ;-) > > BTW, since you're the 88-key, er, guy, any comment on the following? > > I recently tried out a real Rhodes piano ("Mark II" if that's informative), > and it had the greatest key-action -- the keys had a lot of momentum [*], > felt nice and deep, but the action was still really quick and "loose". It > made all the 88-key midi controllers I've tried seem positively sluggish > (but I think many acoustic pianos do too). > > [*] The guy in the store kept saying "it's because they're real wood" but > does the material of the keys really make that much difference? It seems > like the same weight of plastic would have the same feel, and the keys are > covered with plastic anyway... > > I'd really like to find an 88-key midi keyboard with an action like that. > > The best I've tried so far is the Yamaha S-90, but it's still a far cry > from that lovely Rhodes... the S-90 is also kind of expensive. I compared > it to the widely praised P-90, but liked the S-90 better; it felt um, less > sluggish (kind of confusing that Yamaha would use different actions on > their high-end midi keyboards; are these really different, or was it just > my imagination). > > Thanks, > > -Miles > -- > If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. [George Carlin]

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Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:47:11 -0000 From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Analog and VA "imperfections"

All these recent posts reminded me of something that happened to me a while ago. About once a month I check in with all the local music stores looking for good deals on old (analog) gear. I asked one sales guy, probably in his mid 20s, if they ever get in any analog synths on trade. He said " Yeah, we got an old minimoog in a while ago; we sold it for $600. though, because the oscillators kept drifting out of tune". AGGGGGGGH!!! They *all* do that! I didn't tell him though, I just gave him my card and told him to call me ASAP when they get anything else in that "won't stay in tune". I wonder how much they gave the poor sap for his trade-in, and what on earth he replaced a perfectly good minimoog with...

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Message: 11 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:00:27 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

my wife will swear wood and Ivory is better... the best I ever felt was Ivory... There is a old spinet type piano in the studio here that is wood and Ivory. I spend some time keeping it working with it's wood levers, push arms and such. Even the felt... I would say no plastic I ever touched has the same feel as it. The Ivory has wear patterns too. Just sort of calls out to you. Cast Iron harp, I believe. A classic.

Does not the s-90 have the same keybed as the s-80? The p-60 here feels different to me from the s-80 and the TE is different from those two as well. Right now for midi control or the crazy stuff I am working on, I use the TE. I am almost use to it now. It's a bit stiffer... Would like to adjust that down a bit but... I would like to set it like I do my old Smith Corona. Maybe there is a market for such a midi unit? I have to settle for the velocity curves I can set.

My wife, being classic trained, does not like the springy synth keys at all. The pivot of the ION makes me feel like I am fighting it compared to the pivot spot of the MS2000. The MS2000 is faster. All subjected as to what you can get use too.

The Hammond M, with it's two sets are plastic I think... The whole key goes up and down, not pivot. So a style developed playing that is different than a normal piano.

I have Lounge Lizard EP-2 Electric Piano which allows you to toy with all kinds of items in this area, namely the hammers, tonebar, tine and pick up. I attempted a few times to try to figure out just what it is that works the feel to the sound that I like. Well on computer anyway... just a feel. I had to walk over to the piano and touch it when I was writing this... ;-) Just a breath on the keys bring forth a sound...

Don't forget the pedals...

This reminds me of flight sims... which one give the best look and feel and all that extra stuff you buy to sim it all up, including the mock cockpit... ;-)

dale

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: Miles Bader To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: [alesis-ion] 88-key actions

"Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> writes: > a decent set of 88 keys ;-)

BTW, since you're the 88-key, er, guy, any comment on the following?

I recently tried out a real Rhodes piano ("Mark II" if that's informative), and it had the greatest key-action -- the keys had a lot of momentum[*], felt nice and deep, but the action was still really quick and "loose". It made all the 88-key midi controllers I've tried seem positively sluggish (but I think many acoustic pianos do too).

[*] The guy in the store kept saying "it's because they're real wood" but does the material of the keys really make that much difference? It seems like the same weight of plastic would have the same feel, and the keys are covered with plastic anyway...

I'd really like to find an 88-key midi keyboard with an action like that.

The best I've tried so far is the Yamaha S-90, but it's still a far cry from that lovely Rhodes... the S-90 is also kind of expensive. I compared it to the widely praised P-90, but liked the S-90 better; it felt um, less sluggish (kind of confusing that Yamaha would use different actions on their high-end midi keyboards; are these really different, or was it just  my imagination).

Thanks,

-Miles --  If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. [George Carlin]

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Message: 12 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:06:40 -0000 From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

I believe the S90 has graded hammer action, whereas the S80 feels like the same weight on each key. S90 does have really good action; they got rid of all the knobs though. 1 step forward, 1 step backward...                                                                     --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> wrote: > my wife will swear wood and Ivory is better... the best I ever felt was Ivory... > There is a old spinet type piano in the studio here that is wood and Ivory. I spend some time keeping it working with it's wood levers, push arms and such. Even the felt... I would say no plastic I ever touched has the same feel as it. The Ivory has wear patterns too. Just sort of calls out to you. Cast Iron harp, I believe. A classic. > > Does not the s-90 have the same keybed as the s-80? The p-60 here feels different to me from the s-80 and the TE is different from those two as well. Right now for midi control or the crazy stuff I am working on, I use the TE. I am almost use to it now. It's a bit stiffer... Would like to adjust that down a bit but... I would like to set it like I do my old Smith Corona. Maybe there is a market for such a midi unit? I have to settle for the velocity curves I can set. > > My wife, being classic trained, does not like the springy synth keys at all. The pivot of the ION makes me feel like I am fighting it compared to the pivot spot of the MS2000. The MS2000 is faster. All subjected as to what you can get use too. > > The Hammond M, with it's two sets are plastic I think... The whole key goes up and down, not pivot. So a style developed playing that is different than a normal piano. > > I have Lounge Lizard EP-2 Electric Piano which allows you to toy with all kinds of items in this area, namely the hammers, tonebar, tine and pick up. I attempted a few times to try to figure out just what it is that works the feel to the sound that I like. Well on computer anyway... just a feel. I had to walk over to the piano and touch it when I was writing this... ;-) Just a breath on the keys bring forth a sound... > > Don't forget the pedals... > > This reminds me of flight sims... which one give the best look and feel and all that extra stuff you buy to sim it all up, including the mock cockpit... ;-) > > dale > > Administrator for Kay-Net.com > admin@k... > Lancaster CA > 661-723-0266 > > Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter > the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000- subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > band web page > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm > >  - Original Message - >  From: Miles Bader >  To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com >  Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:16 PM >   Subject: [alesis-ion] 88-key actions > > >  "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> writes: >  > a decent set of 88 keys ;-) > >   BTW, since you're the 88-key, er, guy, any comment on the following? > >   I recently tried out a real Rhodes piano ("Mark II" if that's informative), >   and it had the greatest key-action -- the keys had a lot of momentum[*], >   felt nice and deep, but the action was still really quick and "loose".  It >   made all the 88-key midi controllers I've tried seem positively sluggish >   (but I think many acoustic pianos do too). > >   [*] The guy in the store kept saying "it's because they're real wood" but >   does the material of the keys really make that much difference?  It seems >   like the same weight of plastic would have the same feel, and the keys are >   covered with plastic anyway... > >   I'd really like to find an 88-key midi keyboard with an action like that. > >   The best I've tried so far is the Yamaha S-90, but it's still a far cry >  from that lovely Rhodes... the S-90 is also kind of expensive. I compared >  it to the widely praised P-90, but liked the S-90 better; it felt um, less >  sluggish (kind of confusing that Yamaha would use different actions on >   their high-end midi keyboards; are these really different, or was it just >   my imagination). > >  Thanks, > >  -Miles >  -- >   If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. [George Carlin]

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Message: 13 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:13:52 -0000 From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Analog and VA "imperfections"

The later minimoogs did stay in tune a little better. To stabilize the temperature sensitive transistors responsible for each oscs freq, they surrounded them with other transistors used only as "heaters". Still did drift though. --- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@y...> wrote: > All these recent posts reminded me of something that happened to me a > while ago. About once a month I check in with all the local music > stores looking for good deals on old (analog) gear. I asked one sales > guy, probably in his mid 20s, if they ever get in any analog synths > on trade. He said " Yeah, we got an old minimoog in a while ago; we > sold it for $600. though, because the oscillators kept drifting out > of tune". AGGGGGGGH!!! They *all* do that! I didn't tell him though, > I just gave him my card and told him to call me ASAP when they get > anything else in that "won't stay in tune". I wonder how much they > gave the poor sap for his trade-in, and what on earth he replaced a > perfectly good minimoog with...

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Message: 14 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:59:17 +0900 From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

"Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> writes: > Does not the s-90 have the same keybed as the s-80? The p-60 here > feels different to me from the s-80 and the TE is different from those > two as well.

According the usenet groups I looked at, the P-90/p-120/P-60 use the same action, I guess it's Yamaha's latest digital piano action, which is different from the older P-80. I'm not sure about the actions on the S- synths (I looked at a piano newsgroup :-), just that the S-90 felt different to me than digital pianos...

It's annoying because the pianos are a lot cheaper! They would seem a reasonable route to get a nice 88-key keyboard without laying out a lot of cash for a high-end synth. The voices on the newest Yamaha digi-pianos are pretty decent, with good velocity switching (I think it actually fades between samples, which e.g., the velocity switched presets on the S-90 don't seem to do); I especially like the wurlitzer epiano patch -- sounds better than the real thing to me!

I guess the main additional consideration would be aftertouch/mod wheels -- the pianos don't have those, but the S-90 does, right?

-Miles -- `Suppose Korea goes to the World Cup final against Japan and wins,' Moon said. `All the past could be forgiven.'  [NYT]

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Message: 15 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:07:37 -0000 From: "toorglick" <toorglick@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Analog and VA "imperfections"

MMMmmmmmm....REAL analog VCO drift.... ahhhhh....

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@y...> wrote: > > The later minimoogs did stay in tune a little better. To stabilize > the temperature sensitive transistors responsible for each oscs freq, > they surrounded them with other transistors used only as "heaters". > Still did drift > though. >

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Message: 16 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:02:32 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: Re: 88-key actions

Research yammys site for the aftertouch on s-90... the p-60 is like the TE in it's key action but different stiffness (graded hammer action). S-80 does have aftertouch, not the individual key type needed for a cs-80 emulation but overall. I think the TE comes the closest to the piano here. The Roland I am going to go on memory... it felt real. The wood of course. I remember seeing a model of the key action you could play with at the music store I saw it at many years ago. Was a big deal for them.

Whatever you do, put your hands in it first. The s-90 at the local GC, has been abused, does not feel like the p-60 here or the TE. Maybe it gets damaged with heavy hands? There is also the key noise you need to hear with your own ears. Some have that bounce noise, others are damped. A vibration is also felt on some of the keys. Like strike hard, you can hear and feel a bit of vibration with the unit off. All of this goes into the whole mind set as you play, you may not like...

The more I ponder this the more I think it a personal issue of intimacy, how you react to your keys... a relationship of sorts...

dale

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

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Message: 17 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:15:25 -0700 From: moose <moose@pigpendigital.com> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

On 19/10/04 6:16 PM, "Miles Bader" <miles@gnu.org> wrote: > > The best I've tried so far is the Yamaha S-90, but it's still a far cry > from that lovely Rhodes... the S-90 is also kind of expensive. I compared > it to the widely praised P-90, but liked the S-90 better; it felt um, less > sluggish (kind of confusing that Yamaha would use different actions on > their high-end midi keyboards; are these really different, or was it just > my imagination). > > Thanks, > > -Miles

synclavier, rd1000 & kx88 were the best keyboards i ever played. i'm no piano player but i could 'feel' that these things were darn good...

}:-)

email : moose@pigpendigital.com

music sites : http://www.pigpendigital.com http://www.alaskahighway.com http://www.mishikawa.com

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Message: 18 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:23:27 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: vocoder request

I manage to develop a nice head ache this evening... many factors... ;-)

My request is, has anyone manage to make decent vocoder patches for the ION? One in particular is the Cylon voice.

The HY-10 headset is a good match for the ION. It has a double aa battery feed preamp, a level control for your ear phones (stereo/mono), belt control and adjustable high quality mike. I borrowed it from my wife... ;-) I was able to use a xlr to 1/4 with it due to it's pre-amp fine.

Using the ms2000 as a reference for those who have on, the level control for it in the mic not line, is half way. Mike capsule have foam so it's about 1/8 inch from mouth.

For the ION, I adjust most of the level control towards max but not as much as I have in the past with a SM-58, 57 and the beta 58 of course was a bit hotter anyway...

The advantage to me was, I did not hear myself as much as with the open mikes. The ear phones also double as a monitor, you can feed them off the mixer board to hear and adjust the level with the belt control.

dale

Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 19 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:16:44 -0000 From: "jpyn8" <jp1@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Ion oscillators themselves out of phase with each other too? HERE'S PROOF!

Eric - my ION had the same 2-note repeating pattern when I duplicated your test. And I agree with what Miles said below.

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > "Eric Crudup" <ericcrudup@m...> writes:

> > Now that I think about it, a 2 voice pattern may indicate something > > wrong with my synth, unless you guys can confirm the same findings on > > your Ion's. Precisely why I am going to get a new one. > > You seem really anxious to find fault with your Ion. > > Based on what you've said, it really doesn't sound like there's anything > wrong with your synth.

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Digest 532, 21 October 2004 There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: 88-key actions From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> 2. Re: 88-key actions From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> 3. Re: Re: 88-key actions From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 4. Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem! From: "billw_va" <billw_va@yahoo.com> 5. Re: 88-key actions From: "JIMBO" <jimbodeluxe@earthlink.net> 6. Re: Re: 88-key actions From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> 7. Re: 88-key actions From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com>

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Message: 1 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:41:36 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, moose <moose@p...> wrote: > On 19/10/04 6:16 PM, "Miles Bader" <miles@g...> wrote: > synclavier, rd1000 & kx88 were the best keyboards i ever played. i'm no > piano player but i could 'feel' that these things were darn good... > > }:-)

That is so odd. I tried several fully weighted synth keyboards, and couldn't even IMAGINE playing one properly. Those heavy keys only get in my way. Can't depress them fully, fast enough. It feels like I'm fighting the keys rather than actually playing. I have NO piano training whatsoever, maybe that's the answer. Fast piano playing is still a mystery to me. I raise my eyebrow every time someone claims that weighted keyboard is the end-all, be-all for synths. For me it doesn't work at all.

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Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:12:14 -0000 From: "bitexion" <tom-rf@online.no> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> wrote: > Research yammys site for the aftertouch on s-90... the p-60 is >like the TE in it's key action but different stiffness (graded >hammer action). S-80 does have aftertouch, not the individual key

There are many types of weighted keys? I've tried a Triton Extreme, which didn't feel like a piano, so I liked that action. More like a shorter way to push the key than a simple springed keyboard like the Ion's. But I actually like the Ion key action. Very light. If that is what you mean by weighted synth keys, then I'm all for it. But the moment the keys are "closed" and you have to use weight to push them down properly, that's when I lose out..

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Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:04:03 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: Re: 88-key actions

only the TE 88 has weighted keys... the aftertouch is excellent... I can re-program it to send out what ever or assigned it to various effects... well I am just lucky now I have three synths with 88 keys to use if need be... I need to add the anx card to the s-80 and maybe a harmonizer to it too. They even have a dx7 vintage synth card for it too... I don't expect any of them, with the exception of the ROLAND, to feel any closer to a real piano with Ivory and wood. The only Roland anything I have is a keyboard amp that is used for small gigs by my wife. I do have some Boss effects etc.. but that isn't Roland like we are talking.... I forgot about the Yamaha guitars we have... dawned on me last night when I was sitting in front of the guitar rack. photos of studio coming soon... borrowed a digital camera, just got to add light and do it.. (clean up too)

dale Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Dale's band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: bitexion To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: [alesis-ion] Re: 88-key actions There are many types of weighted keys? I've tried a Triton Extreme, which didn't feel like a piano, so I liked that action. More like a  shorter way to push the key than a simple springed keyboard like the Ion's. But I actually like the Ion key action. Very light. If that is what you mean by weighted synth keys, then I'm all for it. But the moment the keys are "closed" and you have to use weight to push them down properly, that's when I lose out..

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Message: 4 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:42:18 -0000 From: "billw_va" <billw_va@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem!

Thanks for the reply. I was going down that path last night just as the Sox/Yankees started, so I didn't get a chance to look into it fully. I'll see if that helps.

Bill

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> wrote: > here is a problem to note > bank switch can be cc 0 or cc 32, you set that value in the global menu... > which will you use and post as a inf? > > dale > > Administrator for Kay-Net.com > admin@k... > Lancaster CA > 661-723-0266 > > Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter > the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000- subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > band web page > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm > >  - Original Message - >  From: billw_va >  To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com >  Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 8:29 AM >   Subject: [alesis-ion] Re: Cakewalk Ins def - bank switching problem! > > > >  Yeah, I think the bank switch values are incorrect. I didn't see the >  values mentioned in the manual, but I'm looking again. I know this >  isn't rocket science...I built these things from scratch in the past >  for things like the EMU Vintage Keys module.

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Message: 5 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:19:45 -0000 From: "JIMBO" <jimbodeluxe@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

For me, the Roland XV-88 has the best "piano like" action, it's awesome. That was the one I ended up buying. When I need strings for corporate work, it does the job. But I wouldn't gig with it, the thing is heavy as hell.

Peace, Jimbo

--- In alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote: > "Dale Kay" <admin@k...> writes: > > a decent set of 88 keys ;-) > > BTW, since you're the 88-key, er, guy, any comment on the following? > >

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Message: 6 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:30:22 -0700 From: "Dale Kay" <admin@kay-net.com> Subject: Re: Re: 88-key actions

that is the price you pay... That is why my wife has a p60, left elbow no longer liked the s-80 weight. I was moving it back for forth so much for a period of time that I had to get a elbow brace... since then any heavy lifting with it will induce the same effect now. Just too darn old to be moving stuff like that. Time to get some groupies. ;-)

one gig she wanted me to move the piano... I managed to rent one and have it delivered and picked back up.

dale Administrator for Kay-Net.com admin@kay-net.com Lancaster CA 661-723-0266

Got a Korg MS2000 or MicroKorg, join the hottest group on yahoo and enter the Song Contest. If not a member, join @ korgms2000-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Dale's band web page http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/inquisitorbetrayermusic.htm

- Original Message - From: JIMBO To: alesis-ion@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:19 PM Subject: [alesis-ion] Re: 88-key actions

For me, the Roland XV-88 has the best "piano like" action, it's  awesome. That was the one I ended up buying. When I need strings for corporate work, it does the job. But I wouldn't gig with it, the thing is heavy as hell.

Peace, Jimbo

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Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:33:32 -0000 From: "uralmoto2001" <uralmoto2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: 88-key actions

I come from a piano background, and like weighted keys for piano stuff. KX88 must have great action; brother Ray (Charles) played one for years. Trying to play a sampled Hammond patch on a weighted keyboard just doesn't work for me. Need a faster action and waterfall keys for B3 work. I also prefer a fast synth action for synth sounds. I like Virus KC action, which is semi-weighted but fast. Ion keys feel kinda cheap but work quite well; I just don't like the short action. The key's pivot point is right where it enters the case; I like longer action. I can see why Alesis chose short action, though; longer action means bigger case and more weight.

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